pottery and art

I often read that pottery is not an art form but merely a craft, unfit for an art gallery and distinctly less desirable than a painting.
So who decides whether a sculptor is superior to a potter? and what is the criteria?

I would say the same about some "art" being a craft, though some popular "artists" I would deem very poor "craftsmen"

For ceramics, I do think there is a difference pots that are craft and those that are art. To me this difference is mainly in the purpose of the pot, i.e. pots for use and pots for decoration. Though many can also be both. Also a lot of potters make domestic ware (craft) and also more sculptural/elaborately decorated work (art). Guy Sydenham would be a good example of this in my opinion.

It's a can of worms really, but I don't see why an "artist" can piddle on a sheet of copper or pickle a shark for art, but if he uses clay it suddenly can't be art

you just about said it all potty except that last remark plenty of those piddleing artists use clay from picasso onwards andy goldsworthy ,antony gormley, richard long ect and of course that turner prize winner I keep mentioning Grayson Perry

oh I forgot one of my favorites miguel barcelo look at this sublime pot http://www.theartblog.org/2008/08/irish-museum-of-modern-art-miquel-barcelo-and-janaina-tschape/

tenpot wrote:you just about said it all potty except that last remark plenty of those piddleing artists use clay from picasso onwards

Yeah I know, but I'm just saying it for the overall picture, i.e. if it's someone equally artistic starting off in ceramics, they are not seen in the same way.

Potty wrote:I would say the same about some "art" being a craft, though some popular "artists" I would deem very poor "craftsmen"

For ceramics, I do think there is a difference pots that are craft and those that are art. To me this difference is mainly in the purpose of the pot, i.e. pots for use and pots for decoration. Though many can also be both. Also a lot of potters make domestic ware (craft) and also more sculptural/elaborately decorated work (art). Guy Sydenham would be a good example of this in my opinion.

It's a can of worms really, but I don't see why an "artist" can piddle on a sheet of copper or pickle a shark for art, but if he uses clay it suddenly can't be art

Guy Sydenham was a craftsman for many years but I believe he became an artist when he took his white coat off and made expressive pottery

dantheman wrote:
Guy Sydenham was a craftsman for many years but I believe he became an artist when he took his white coat off and made expressive pottery

He was making both sculptural work and domestic ware at the Mermaid Studios yeah?

I would say that John Maltby has moved from Craft to Art, which has resulted in the jump in prices for his pieces with the buying public - try telling a collector his work is 'merely craft, not art' and I doubt they'd believe you.

Convesly I wouldn't call the Leach family's work Art since their work is firmly in the domestic Craft end of pottery.

Potty wrote:

dantheman wrote:
Guy Sydenham was a craftsman for many years but I believe he became an artist when he took his white coat off and made expressive pottery

He was making both sculptural work and domestic ware at the Mermaid Studios yeah?

yes he still needed the bread and butter pieces to cover his bills

dantheman wrote:

Potty wrote:

dantheman wrote:
Guy Sydenham was a craftsman for many years but I believe he became an artist when he took his white coat off and made expressive pottery

He was making both sculptural work and domestic ware at the Mermaid Studios yeah?

yes he still needed the bread and butter pieces to cover his bills

That's sort of the difference I was trying to show, the difference between the pots they make by the dozen (yet often still beautifully made) and their more individually made pots.

P.S. I'm not too good at explaining what I mean in text

I agree that some studio pottery is probably craft but can pottery be art?

I think so

Perhaps art has to move things forward. The only ceramicists to do this in the last 100 years are Lucie Rie and Hans Coper and maybe Ewen Henderson and Angus Suttie imo

Below is a quote from Sir Herbert Edward Read, DSO, MC (1893–1968), who was an English anarchist, poet, and critic of literature and art.

"Pottery is plastic art in its most abstract form".

So no arguing with Herbie from me and anyone who does is just talking nonsense.

sums it up for me

... and if we were Chinese or Japanese it would seem ludicrous that centuries ago some influential people in the West would have suggested there was a difference and that this would be accepted as the truth.

Carolyn Preston wrote:Maybe the number of pieces one makes of the same design? Whether it be shape, or painting, or glaze.


Carolyn

Absolutely. There is something about the repetition that's important.

Yanagi was a close friend of Bernard Leach and an Art Historian and Philosopher and he believed that the repeated unselfconscious hand production led to pottery having an instinctive quality separate from human artistic intention. Almost the opposite of art which involves the intention for it to be art by the artist.

The value of early Leach and Cardew pots lies in the fact that they are not art. They have no artistic intention.

" the basis of the art that I was taught was searching for that instintive quality, picasso said he spent his life trying to draw like a child Ie instinctivley or naturally without preconcieved artistic intention

I have always been interested in art produced without pre concieved intent and would often ask my Grandfather to scribble on paper or quickly draw some random lines so I could see what might emerge from them.
Max Erst would use the frottage technique (similar to brass rubbing) with a similar aim in mind.
I find that a ball of clay will begin to produce a form without pre concieved artistic intent when it is worked in my hands,this is possibly why Picasso loved to use it

Dan - you may well like this then. Very artistic but created without any pre-concieved intent.

is it ice?

Yep, Ice / Frost.
When I got to work Monday morning the works van looked like this. Within less than 20 min it was gone and my pic's are the only record of its existance. One of the most beautiful things I think I've ever seen - the 'pattern' not the van.

Is nature art?

no, but I think Andy Goldsworthy does a pretty good job using it in his art

art often shows man's ham fisted attempt to capture nature's splendour