Re: Discussion split from the Mark filled with glaze - Mike Dodd - thread

[philpot]

Phil Rogers dead. Jim Malone retiring, Mike Dodd retiring. It feels like the  sad passing of era. With the three giants of 3rd generation Leach style potters disappear from the sce ne.

[NaomiM]

There are young potters like Charlie Collier continuing the Leach tradition. And the Leach Pottery itself. Tbh, do we need any more Leach-style pottery?

[philpot]

You are probably right Naomi. Leach style has been around for a long time now. The reality being that there is only so much you can do with it I suppose. Equally, nearly all those styles have been explored. On t'other hand, there is very large body of work from over a century now. It is the central core of the studio pottery field that still has a very significant part of the 2nd hand market.

[Neil62]

In comparison to most members I am a newbie - I am a Leach fan …as a result of the different associations I am also a fan of Winchcombe & Wenford Bridge pottery, but for me I like to research & learn but that relates almost exclusively to the ‘old Leach’ style with some additions who all have histories & stories to tell. I recognise the developing talents and whilst I might buy pottery from them or by them I don’t get the same pleasure as researching something as frustrating as that often is …I hope that makes sense. I am trying to spend some of my hard earned with potters who are still with us ….I’ve bought from Jack Doherty, Jim Malone, Matt Grimmitt and others Adrian Brough & I’ve ordered some items from Mark Griffiths but for me they fall one way or another within the parameters above. It’s the type of pottery I like and I’m comfortable within those parameters so whilst I accept the premise of your question Naomi for me until I’ve seen as much Leach as I can there will never be enough!
Kind regards
Neil62

[philpot]

Have you ever bought any of Edward Hughes work Neil? Now there was a fine potter from the Leach school! I think you are also confirming a point I as trying to make above. The Leach/Winchcombe and school of Leach have such a rich and varied history. That it gives a sort of deep rooted and historical background that is deep and fascinating.

[Neil62]

No haven’t Philpot, I’ve heard of him but never had any of his work. I do appreciate that what I like is not everyone’s cup of tea but as someone said to me recently collecting is like an addiction and I think that’s right but I still get a thrill out of finding treasure and finding something I hadn’t seen before is great!!
Best wishes Philpot!

[croker]

I think i would have to agree with Niomim the studio pottery market is swamped with Leach type wares ,good news for those that have an interest in this area as an overstocked market means very low prices . The June sale at Tennants has a large single owner collection of mid range Leach type wares  and it should be interesting too see how these perform.

[pole_2_pole]

I am enjoying reading this discussion. Having been aware of studio pottery for a long time it's only really the last few years' that the addiction has truly set in. I'm with Neil on this - I find Leach type ware my biggest draw, and also like Neil I always enjoy the research side of the buying process. My collection is very heavily swayed to those who practice that style of work, though I do also find the abstract, figurative and sculptural work of some potters very appealing (I have a Dylan Bowen which I adore), and I am drawn to Simon Carroll, Colin Pearson, etc etc. But to be honest, if I like something I don't really mind what category or genre it falls into.

For a few years I worked a few miles away from Richard Batterham and I never got my arse in gear to visit. This is a huge regret. And as a result of that I'm also trying to visit and maintain relationships with living potters (Dodd, Malone, Hammond, etc.). Some local ones to me (I'm in Oxford) who are worth searching out include Simon Horton (ex Winchcombe), Robin Walden, Iain Shield, Tom Knowles Jackson (TKJ is heavily influenced by Batterham, and was also at Bryanston but quite a while after RB!). We also have a thriving wood firing community in Oxford which is all thanks to the Oxford Uni kilns project in Wytham Woods.

Neil, have you seen Oxford Ceramics' new exhibition - St Ives, Bernard Leach & the Early Pioneers. Wonderful to look at, but you'll need deep pockets if you want to purchase any. Stick to auctions!  

Speaking of auctions, I work part-time for Dominic Winter Auctioneers in the Cotswolds and we are slowly trying to increase our studio pottery intake. I will update once we have got things off the ground (this will take time!).

Ed

[NaomiM]

Good to know Ed
I’ve visited the Oxford Anagama kiln several times and it’s very exciting the new potters coming out of it. It’s the Oxford Art Weeks this Month so several potters, like Iain Shield and Harriet Coleridge are on my list to visit. I have a lot of Dylan Bowen’s work from his open studios; he’s great to chat to.
Tom Knowles Jackson, Bert Jones and Florian Gadsby, amongst others, are keeping up the tradition of simple well made functional pottery. It’s an exciting time to be collecting.

[pole_2_pole]

Good to know Ed
I’ve visited the Oxford Anagama kiln several times and it’s very exciting the new potters coming out of it. It’s the Oxford Art Weeks this Month so several potters, like Iain Shield and Harriet Coleridge are on my list to visit. I have a lot of Dylan Bowen’s work from his open studios; he’s great to chat to.
Tom Knowles Jackson, Bert Jones and Florian Gadsby, amongst others, are keeping up the tradition of simple well made functional pottery. It’s an exciting time to be collecting.

You know the score! Here are my two Iain Shield pieces (both from 2023, the jar and cover is from a Wytham Woods firing).

[NaomiM]

[Neil62]

I could live with both of them

[NaomiM]

Joseph Bull of @ashglazedceramics in Wotton-by-Woodstock is on my list to visit. He's also been firing at Wytham Woods. Just realised his last open day as part of the Oxford Artweeks is today!

[philpot]

https://auctions.adampartridge.co.uk/auction/search/?st=edward+hughes&c=1
There we are Neil. Edward Hughes. He spent a long time in Japan and had a Japanese wife. He was also a very great friend of Jim Malone. Well worth seeking out!
The Tennant's auction looks interesting. They do have one of the most beautiful auction sites in the counry.
Unfortunately you face a lot of competition down near Cirencester for Studio pottery auctioneers. Mallams, Chorleys, Kinghams, Wooley and Wallis...!

[Neil62]

He died very young - thanks for that Philpot!

[philpot]

This is growing into one of those much broader discussion. Which probably needs to move to the appropriate place. I always find this sort of discussion very interesting though.
                Maak auctions are probably a very good place to take a snapshot of the broad studio pottery market. If you look at the last two auctions. Then very  roughly 25% of them can probably be classed at 'Leach style' potters in a broad sense of the word. That % is roughly the same in most Maak auctions. I presume that is the policy. The broad market is very different from this. Ebay for instance is dominated by 'Leach style potters'. But then of course, you rarely get high end £1000+ pots on Ebay.
           So is 25% Leach school a true reflection of the market? Or just the high end?  What is notable on Maak, is the price differential between Leach potters and the rest of the market. Its only Bernard Leach and Shoji Hamada that get £1000 on Maak. Very loosely, the  big money is in a relatively small group of more 'modern' potters. Or outliers like Magdalene Odundo, Ladi Kwali etc. Also SOME Korean, Japanese potters.
               So is is Leach style pottery just the Bread and butter end of the market?  Is demand for it gradually fading? As with all markets, things come and go. Its often very much down to the whims of fashion. Whither the future in the studio pottery market?

[Neil62]

This is growing into one of those much broader discussion. Which probably needs to move to the appropriate place. I always find this sort of discussion very interesting though.
                Maak auctions are probably a very good place to take a snapshot of the broad studio pottery market. If you look at the last two auctions. Then very  roughly 25% of them can probably be classed at 'Leach style' potters in a broad sense of the word. That % is roughly the same in most Maak auctions. I presume that is the policy. The broad market is very different from this. Ebay for instance is dominated by 'Leach style potters'. But then of course, you rarely get high end £1000+ pots on Ebay.
           So is 25% Leach school a true reflection of the market? Or just the high end?  What is notable on Maak, is the price differential between Leach potters and the rest of the market. Its only Bernard Leach and Shoji Hamada that get £1000 on Maak. Very loosely, the  big money is in a relatively small group of more 'modern' potters. Or outliers like Magdalene Odundo, Ladi Kwali etc. Also SOME Korean, Japanese potters.
               So is is Leach style pottery just the Bread and butter end of the market?  Is demand for it gradually fading? As with all markets, things come and go. Its often very much down to the whims of fashion. Whither the future in the studio pottery market?

Morning Philpot,
I don’t disagree with much of what you are saying but I do think there are other factors involved.
For example the volume of work the potters produced which limits availability. BL for example produced work as part of the standard ware range which he decorated & signed so in terms of the median value of his work there are examples which are very much affordable which drags the average price down whereas some of the work created by some of the other names mentioned have not got large volumes of work.
Ladi Kwali is different as she was producing pottery which had functionality and so some of her work for example her tankards / plates are not expensive (in terms of collectability) even her very valuable work with large decorated pots had a functional aspect in that they were traditional pots and potentially could be damaged by use.

I am not decrying the art of any of the potters but just explaining how there are other factors involved.
One of the reasons I like BL is that he transcended the gap between mass production and earning a living as a celebrated artist.
He decorated some of the standardware and signed it then sold it for the equivalent of 65pence yet he also produced work at the same time which sold for £25 and some far in advance of that.
I can’t imagine Magdalene Odundo doing the same - it’s a different era but what I would say is that era has been developed and the pathway prepared by the likes of Leach, Cardew, Finch, Marshall, Batterham & others.
I also believe that some collectors will only pay large prices for items which have no damage and many items by the potters named come with detriments partly because of the way that they were made and because of their potential functionality.
A lot of what you say I agree with but as I say there are other factors - It is hard to for example equate the painstaking work decorating a pot with intricate incised decoration for example a large vessel by Ladi Kwali with a plate or bowl decorated with a ladle pour or a few brush strokes by Shoji Hamada much as I appreciate both works.
The way the art was produced and the work involved has to be a factor when comparing potters like for like.
I have just finished looking at Maak for todays auction and quite a few of the pieces by BL come with minor damage whilst the Lucie Rie pieces, though much more delicate and refined have no damage.
Lot of factors but I couldn’t compare BL’s style and work with that of Lucie Rie and I think that’s the basic premise of the point I am trying to make. They are at very different ends of a spectrum which in terms of art in general and even studio pottery is still a very narrow band in a much larger field.

[Neil62]

Well after bidding at Maak I would say that the market regarding the old guard is still very much alive and kicking except for BL whose lots in many cases failed to reach their reserve. I attended an auction recently when I bought the least expensive lot out of 9 I think but with commission it was well into four figures. All the usual suspects figured well though there weren’t many examples of some but Janet & David’s sold well Cardew & Bill Marshall likewise.
Batterham very well - I liked a jug and bid but it went for more than I wanted to pay and over estimate.
Ladi Kwali pot went for about 12,000 and Lucy Rie’s as usual all went beyond estimate.
If I had a big pot of money and invested only in the short term I think my money would be on her stock.
I stopped watching after that!

[NaomiM]

I've split the thread and moved it to the General Pottery Discussion section

[Neil62]

I'll split the thread and move it to the General Pottery Discussion section

No problem Naomi - should I have done something else after Mile Dodd identified it or not…just for future reference!

[NaomiM]

No, nothing. It's the Mods job to merge it with the main Mike Dodd thread

[philpot]

Having watched the Leach part of today's Maak sale. Very few of the Leach pots got more than one bid. Th exception being the Shoji Hamada. What makes prices go up is two-or preferably more! Having said that of course, some of it was not of the greatest quality.
The laws of supply and demand apply of course. Nearly all of the Leach potters were wheel throwers, with long careers. Comparatively speaking. They produced a large amount of work. Giving a relative abundance of supply.
Whereas hand builders and potters who spend a long time decorating, just work much more slowly. So there is just not so much work of theirs available in the market. Scarcity=inflation!
Whereas those

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