How to ID pottery
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Potty
Potty Primate
studio-pots
big ed
dantheman
9 posters
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How to ID pottery
Recently we touched on the problem of identifying unmarked pottery, as with unmarked glass the ID process can be confusing and uncertain with many contradictory theories and ideas.
As we have a varied group of collectors from all corners of the earth, I thought it a good opportunity to compare notes + share techniques and resources, I look forward to your tips, advice and comments.
As we have a varied group of collectors from all corners of the earth, I thought it a good opportunity to compare notes + share techniques and resources, I look forward to your tips, advice and comments.
_________________
'Edith Swan takes it up the Swanee and she loves it more than Christmas day.'
dantheman- Consultant
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Location : Lincolnshire ( the veg patch of England)
Registration date : 2008-02-03
Re: How to ID pottery
This thread Dan set up could maybe help us with more identification of pots , as it's always a topical feature on the forum , we do have a good mix of members with various interests ,so feel free to leave any info you might think would help regarding finding out those hard to read or obscure names .
We will never ever be able to Id all the studio pots around , as you know every town , village, hamlet etc, all had potters ,Pros & Ams , multiply that around the country , then add other countries and we see the problem , but every new one Id'd is a bonus .
We will never ever be able to Id all the studio pots around , as you know every town , village, hamlet etc, all had potters ,Pros & Ams , multiply that around the country , then add other countries and we see the problem , but every new one Id'd is a bonus .
big ed- Number of posts : 11934
Age : 70
Location : UK
Registration date : 2008-03-22
Re: How to ID pottery
http://www.studiopottery.com/
The Studio Pottery site is excellent and well used .
The Studio Pottery site is excellent and well used .
big ed- Number of posts : 11934
Age : 70
Location : UK
Registration date : 2008-03-22
Re: How to ID pottery
http://www.cpaceramics.co.uk/link.php
The Craft Potters Association
The Craft Potters Association
big ed- Number of posts : 11934
Age : 70
Location : UK
Registration date : 2008-03-22
Re: How to ID pottery
The majority of studio potters do mark their work, even if we don't know the name of the potter that corresponds to the mark. Even then occasionally people just forget to mark the odd pot, which is more often the case with production of standard wares such as Winchcombe.
However, the real problem is that some important potters don't mark their work or have gone through stages of not marking it and this leads to mis-attribution. The Japanese potter, Shoji Hamada, is an example of this and, although exhibition work was supplied with a marked box, it is very easy to take out the Hamada pot and replace it with an unmarked pot that is similar and sell this on as being by Hamada himself.
In the UK the work of Richard Batterham, Svend Bayer and Clive Bowen comes to mind and you often see unmarked pieces similar (or sometimes not that similar) to their work in auctions both around the country and online with a firm attribution. The only way to stop being caught is to see enough of the work of the potter in question. Maybe it would help to have an "unmarked pottery" section on here split into potters, who don't mark, with images of their work?
However, the real problem is that some important potters don't mark their work or have gone through stages of not marking it and this leads to mis-attribution. The Japanese potter, Shoji Hamada, is an example of this and, although exhibition work was supplied with a marked box, it is very easy to take out the Hamada pot and replace it with an unmarked pot that is similar and sell this on as being by Hamada himself.
In the UK the work of Richard Batterham, Svend Bayer and Clive Bowen comes to mind and you often see unmarked pieces similar (or sometimes not that similar) to their work in auctions both around the country and online with a firm attribution. The only way to stop being caught is to see enough of the work of the potter in question. Maybe it would help to have an "unmarked pottery" section on here split into potters, who don't mark, with images of their work?
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Now you should know by now that Potty and I need to see your bottom - we're funny that way!
Re: How to ID pottery
an inspired idea,we need to make it more specific though or it will get clogged up with all the unmarked but worthless
_________________
'Edith Swan takes it up the Swanee and she loves it more than Christmas day.'
dantheman- Consultant
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Location : Lincolnshire ( the veg patch of England)
Registration date : 2008-02-03
Re: How to ID pottery
Yes I think one of the consultants on here needs to have the power of who to include.
For example, besides the UK potters I have mentioned I might suggest Patrick Sargent but think that I ought to either have to make a case for his inclusion or be prepared for it to be removed to another section if not felt appropriate.
I would be happy to go along with something like that.
For example, besides the UK potters I have mentioned I might suggest Patrick Sargent but think that I ought to either have to make a case for his inclusion or be prepared for it to be removed to another section if not felt appropriate.
I would be happy to go along with something like that.
_________________
Now you should know by now that Potty and I need to see your bottom - we're funny that way!
Re: How to ID pottery
I wouldn't want to make that decision...perhaps we could have premier and first divisions
_________________
'Edith Swan takes it up the Swanee and she loves it more than Christmas day.'
dantheman- Consultant
- Number of posts : 15463
Location : Lincolnshire ( the veg patch of England)
Registration date : 2008-02-03
Re: How to ID pottery
I think as the thread priority is about IDing pots then comments , attributions etc should all be included here , the potters who don't mark their work can be featured here with a pic or two as a guide and then discussed ,( I know seeing the stuffin the flesh should be the best guide) the shoji hamada piece I saw only had a "MADE IN JAPAN " label , also I heard some prisoners doing pottery classes were turning out very good Bernard Leach pots , so it aint easy
big ed- Number of posts : 11934
Age : 70
Location : UK
Registration date : 2008-03-22
Re: How to ID pottery
I agree big ed that it isn't easy and there is nothing like seeing and touching pots but I think that it is a good idea to give people who visit this forum as much information as possible to help them make a better judgement.
For example I haven't seen the Japanese pot you mention but if I was told that something with a "Made in Japan" label was by Hamada I would walk away and advise anyone else to do the same.
For example I haven't seen the Japanese pot you mention but if I was told that something with a "Made in Japan" label was by Hamada I would walk away and advise anyone else to do the same.
_________________
Now you should know by now that Potty and I need to see your bottom - we're funny that way!
Re: How to ID pottery
yes , I thought the same , but there you go some actually had that label on them , I saw it in the paisley museum where they have a very good collection .
big ed- Number of posts : 11934
Age : 70
Location : UK
Registration date : 2008-03-22
Re: How to ID pottery
Lot 290: Shoji Hamada (1894-1978) A stoneware charger, wax Shoji Hamada - 1894-1978
Auction House: Woolley & Wallis
Auction Location: United Kingdom
Auction Title: British Art Pottery
Auction Date: 2009
+ Expand
Description: Shoji Hamada (1894-1978) A stoneware charger, wax resist decorated with a flower stem in tenmoku, remains of Made in Japan paper label 31.5cm. high
Here's a description from an old auction.
Auction House: Woolley & Wallis
Auction Location: United Kingdom
Auction Title: British Art Pottery
Auction Date: 2009
+ Expand
Description: Shoji Hamada (1894-1978) A stoneware charger, wax resist decorated with a flower stem in tenmoku, remains of Made in Japan paper label 31.5cm. high
Here's a description from an old auction.
big ed- Number of posts : 11934
Age : 70
Location : UK
Registration date : 2008-03-22
Re: How to ID pottery
I was at the sale, saw the charger and walked away and if I had been asked I would have advised anyone else to do the same.
_________________
Now you should know by now that Potty and I need to see your bottom - we're funny that way!
Re: How to ID pottery
To expand on that, the charger looks as if it might be by Hamada but only "might". The only attribution is by the vendor and the auction house, which is worth nothing, as they have everything to gain from the charger selling for the highest price and there was nothing else to back up their attribution. The label is a negative.
Basically no-one can be certain if Hamada made the charger or not, if they could be then it would have sold for far more than it did.
Basically no-one can be certain if Hamada made the charger or not, if they could be then it would have sold for far more than it did.
_________________
Now you should know by now that Potty and I need to see your bottom - we're funny that way!
Re: How to ID pottery
well I have no reason to doubt the integrity of the museum piece that I saw in paisley , as hamada didn't sign much of his stuff except in the early days then the provenance is with the holder , this piece was displayed alongside numerous bernard leach , luci rei, cardew , coper pieces etc , I would also be wary at an auction though .
big ed- Number of posts : 11934
Age : 70
Location : UK
Registration date : 2008-03-22
Re: How to ID pottery
it's wise to get written provenance from living artists/potters if you own a very valuable piece of their work but can't prove it's background.
I have several rare examples that are not marked as such but the potters have all sent me a summary of their production & often include notes detailing the process so there can be no dispute with future buyers
I have several rare examples that are not marked as such but the potters have all sent me a summary of their production & often include notes detailing the process so there can be no dispute with future buyers
_________________
'Edith Swan takes it up the Swanee and she loves it more than Christmas day.'
dantheman- Consultant
- Number of posts : 15463
Location : Lincolnshire ( the veg patch of England)
Registration date : 2008-02-03
Re: How to ID pottery
Yes , I would go along with that , I have letters from a few potters to that effect , some living artists need no provenance though with certain pieces , but some galleries will provide it with the potters who are presently pushing up the daisies.
big ed- Number of posts : 11934
Age : 70
Location : UK
Registration date : 2008-03-22
Re: How to ID pottery
I agree that written provenance with some items is essential for me to purchase. Going back to the Hamada at the auction, if it had come together with a receipt from, say, the Beaux Arts Gallery dated 1952 with a description, then I would have felt confident that it was by Hamada. Hamada's work did not come to this country willy nilly and an exhibition at Beaux Arts took place in that year when the label may have been necessary, due to it being just after the Second World War.
I think the advise for anyone is that they need to be convinced themselves and take no notice of what the auction house, gallery or dealer tells them. Even the most honest seller can be wrong on occasions.
I think the advise for anyone is that they need to be convinced themselves and take no notice of what the auction house, gallery or dealer tells them. Even the most honest seller can be wrong on occasions.
_________________
Now you should know by now that Potty and I need to see your bottom - we're funny that way!
Re: How to ID pottery
150619893308 on ebay , even the galleries get it wrong sometimes , this is Jason Wason , not Joanna
big ed- Number of posts : 11934
Age : 70
Location : UK
Registration date : 2008-03-22
Re: How to ID pottery
Even I get it wrong sometimes and you are right that the dealer has got the wrong Wason on the ebay item.
Maybe the Young Mr. F is wondering why the bidding is so strong. In this case I suppose that it doesn't matter, as a Jason is worth more than a Joanna and I am sure the bidders know who made it.
Maybe the Young Mr. F is wondering why the bidding is so strong. In this case I suppose that it doesn't matter, as a Jason is worth more than a Joanna and I am sure the bidders know who made it.
_________________
Now you should know by now that Potty and I need to see your bottom - we're funny that way!
Re: How to ID pottery
That's right John , I know he knows , Iv'e dealt with him before , but it's nice to see someone else make the boobies for a change , PS I always prefered Joanna pieces
big ed- Number of posts : 11934
Age : 70
Location : UK
Registration date : 2008-03-22
Re: How to ID pottery
I remember back in 1996/7 a friend of mine bought a small pedestal dish from the Contemporary Ceramics sale at the London auction house that at the time was the leader in the field. It was catalogued as being Japanese with two indistinct marks. I and most others probably didn't bother to look and he bought it for around £26, including commission. In July 1997 he put it in a Studio Pottery sale at Christie's in South Kensington (lot 37) and it sold for £1900. It was properly catalogued as being by a Japanese potter but had been made in this country. The seals were for the Leach Pottery and Hamada.
I don't think I have made as big a mistake as "Auntie Cyril" did that time.
I don't think I have made as big a mistake as "Auntie Cyril" did that time.
_________________
Now you should know by now that Potty and I need to see your bottom - we're funny that way!
Re: How to ID pottery
Another good way of Iding the hamada pots is, if you throw one against a concrete wall ..........really really hard and it doesn't break into a million pieces then it's a fake.
big ed- Number of posts : 11934
Age : 70
Location : UK
Registration date : 2008-03-22
Re: How to ID pottery
Re: How to ID pottery
by big ed on Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:43 pm
Auction Title: British Art Pottery
Description: Shoji Hamada (1894-1978) A stoneware charger, wax resist decorated with a flower stem in tenmoku, remains of Made in Japan paper label 31.5cm. high
Bit of an oxymoron?
Potty Primate- Number of posts : 345
Location : Nottinghamshire
Registration date : 2011-04-23
big ed- Number of posts : 11934
Age : 70
Location : UK
Registration date : 2008-03-22
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